Curse

Gun Pierson · May 24, 2009, 05:27 PM // 17:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Gosh I haven't synced Aspy in years.
Still, do you think that a random arena should only be balanced if one syncs?

Random arena and balance don't work that well together. They can make it another mirror map with shrine capping, but we already have plenty of those.

The best thing I can think of is to drop Gunther and the turtles and make it a raid map, 16 or more players at each side, the fort is already there. The first real raid in GW, that's news

It could become very popular so a matchmaking system would be needed then to avoid a random team facing a (synching) veteran raid guild/team. After x wins, the starting positions can be swapped so the Kurzicks have to recap the fort. Almost similar like the line on the map in factions, but on a smaller scale.

upier · May 24, 2009, 05:46 PM // 17:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by HawkofStorms

They already decreased the timers by half and added enchantment removal to the turtles.
What more does Luxons need?

Like mentioned countless times - the turtles are one of the easiest things to disable. So given that - when you are dealing with players that know how to abuse the broken aspects of the battlefield - the buffs to the turtles were pretty irrelevant. Well, outside of the "hard to interrupt" clause. But just like pretty much every other idea that was introduced to just counter a specific tactic rather then focus on the problem itself - it's dumb and should be removed.

And the shortened timer just means that there is much less time to pressure the Kurzicks.

I guess what the Luxons need a better balanced game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gun Pierson

Random arena and balance don't work that well together. They can make it another mirror map with shrine capping, but we already have plenty of those.

As I have said in the other thread - add an active objective for the Kurzicks. And if that objective is not fulfilled once the timer runs out - the game ends in a draw.
That also forces Kurzicks to rely on luck - since the active objective would demand some sort of a split between defensive and offensive characters, which would mean that completely defensive Kurzick teams would pretty much be unable to win.

Lishy · May 24, 2009, 05:48 PM // 17:48

Upier, have you even seen FA lately?
Kurzicks are noob pvpers and obviously luxons have a better chance of winning :V

Gun Pierson · May 24, 2009, 05:53 PM // 17:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

- add an active objective for the Kurzicks. And if that objective is not fulfilled once the timer runs out - the game ends in a draw.

It would only be balanced if the Luxons would get a passive objective then. It's not logical to think Kurzicks should focus on holding Luxon's advance while at the same time taking care of another active objective besides running amber to restore the gates.

Nessar · May 24, 2009, 06:01 PM // 18:01

I think FA is balanced enough. I've been playing Luxon side for a few days now and I've won tons of times. A lot of the kurzick players don't know what they are doing and run around like chickens with their heads cut off. Every once in a while I'll come across a team who knows what they are doing, but thats every 3/10 battles.

Also to answer the question, it shouldn't be removed from the zquest rotation. FA is fine & dandy from my experience.

rohara · May 24, 2009, 06:35 PM // 18:35

oh please. all the luxons need to do is bring big damage and enchant removal and they win. it requires zero to little coordination to accomplish. just mob and pile damage on anything that gets in your way and go win the game. you're goal is to siege and assassinate, so bring the tools to do so and you'll be fine. even 2-3 monks can't out-heal 8 damage dealers + uber turtles + uber hammer warriors. if you lose on the luxon side, you have only yourselves to blame.

the kurzick side requires team coordination to win which RARELY happens in such a random environment.

FA is fine and should stay in rotation, and the only imbalances i see are in favor of the luxons, not against. oh boo hoo, so monks can stand behind the gates and heal things...that doesn't mean you can't kill the target they're healing, not by a long shot. if one monk can stop your whole team in its tracks, you're doing it wrong and the kurzicks deserve the win.

belladonna shylock · May 24, 2009, 06:45 PM // 18:45

This topic is so old.....why put a new twist on it that really isn't worth putting on it? Zmissions are optional. Who crys over an option? There's a learning curve to all pvp related areas. Why get crappy about it? It is what it is.

As far as Kurzick side being easier...
I obtained max Kruzick title in FA, from almost start to finish. If I had the option to gain kurzick faction by attacking the fort instead of defending it, i would have attacked it. It's MUCH easier to attack it. One person can truly make a difference on the Luxon side if they know what they are doing. One person who knows how the NPC's work can really win the match for Luxon. This is not true on the kurzick side. one healer won't win the match.

To put it in simple terms: Luxons play pvE (there's no super benefit in killing other players unless they can perform huge amounts of healing at well timed intervals). Kurzick play PVP.

UnChosen · May 24, 2009, 07:11 PM // 19:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by rohara

oh please. all the luxons need to do is bring big damage and enchant removal and they win. it requires zero to little coordination to accomplish. just mob and pile damage on anything that gets in your way and go win the game. you're goal is to siege and assassinate, so bring the tools to do so and you'll be fine. even 2-3 monks can't out-heal 8 damage dealers + uber turtles + uber hammer warriors. if you lose on the luxon side, you have only yourselves to blame.

the kurzick side requires team coordination to win which RARELY happens in such a random environment.

FA is fine and should stay in rotation, and the only imbalances i see are in favor of the luxons, not against. oh boo hoo, so monks can stand behind the gates and heal things...that doesn't mean you can't kill the target they're healing, not by a long shot. if one monk can stop your whole team in its tracks, you're doing it wrong and the kurzicks deserve the win.

Agreed. Luxons can just randomly attack targets and still have a very good chance of winning. Kurzick pretty much needs multiple monks to win now that the turtle has AoE strip enchant. Getting people to amber run is actually a lot harder than it sounds, if there is a runner but no one help him cap mines its useless. And of course all the wars and sins in kurzick can't do anything efficiently.

Yawgmoth · May 24, 2009, 07:14 PM // 19:14

Played a lot of FA this weekend, on both sides, with multiple different chars. Won 100% of matches as a Kurzick but only 2 (in 12-15 played) as Luxon, and Luxons didn't suck badly in most of the matches lost. When both teams are ~equal, Kurzicks will always win = Map is clearly imbalanced.

ousbique · May 24, 2009, 07:14 PM // 19:14

The problem with FA is : luxon have to bring 50% offense and 50% defense (hard with random team), and kurzick have juste to bring defense. Here we go lineback 100% time, 3/4/5 monks and ritualists.

Another stupid fact is kurzicks npc = anti melee. caping a kurzick mine with a war = pain. caping a luxon mine with two crappy rangers is so easy. Even command points are easiers than luxons mine imho
And i forget kurzick elementalists, yeeeee gogo ward & sliver armor ><
So luxon ppl take casters, like fire ele and roj monks, because playing melee in this side is so painful, but when thoses casters have to kill monks in the final rush to the green gate or Gunther, they're totally inefficient, and only good melee/shutdown can break the shitton of kurzick bonds+heals.

reducing time for the vengeance of the god broke FA imo, with a rez shrine at the opposite of the objective, luxons loose 50-60% of their time running and walking.

upier · May 24, 2009, 08:43 PM // 20:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gun Pierson

It would only be balanced if the Luxons would get a passive objective then. It's not logical to think Kurzicks should focus on holding Luxon's advance while at the same time taking care of another active objective besides running amber to restore the gates.

The problem is that running amber is an optional objective. What could be done though is make it into a mandatory for winning. This could be achieved by adding a second counter - a simple counter that counts the number of ambers brought in. If the Kurzicks fail to bring in a specific number of amber at the end of the match - the match ends in a draw.
This forces a number of tactics:
1. the Kurzicks focus on achieving a draw. Full monk teams - Luxons can not get in to kill Gunther. Game ends in a draw because the Luxons failed to achieve the goal of killing Gunthy and Kurzicks failed to bring in the required number of amber.
2. Luxons try to force a draw by camping the amber sites, killing everyone that comes close on sight, thus preventing Kurzicks from obtaining the needed amber. This of course means that no-one goes after Gunther - which means that Luxons can not win. Draw again.
3. Luxons push into the castle - letting Kurzicks go after amber. If the guys want to bring in amber - the doors need to go down, which opens up the chance for the Luxons to go in. Kurzicks obtain amber BUT they can not hide behind a wall. And if the Kurzicks control the mines - that means the Luxons spawn at the other side of the map - massively increasing the time it takes them to reach the castle again.
4. Various splits. Some Kurzicks defend Gunthy, while other run amber VS. some Luxons advance into the castle while other guys camp the amber sites.

Of course what then needs to be looked at are the NPCs. Trash the Turtle, trash the Jaggy, trash the ability to fix the gates, ... these are all variables that can be looked at.

Gun Pierson · May 24, 2009, 08:54 PM // 20:54

Ok Upier, but I don't like the 'draw' part in your example. If a draw still results in faction points for both sides, why would you play at all? Force a draw, both teams win in terms of gaining faction. Anet can remove /roll there too, just in case

If a draw results in no faction at all for nobody, FA could become a hard place to earn some points then.

Bryant Again · May 24, 2009, 09:13 PM // 21:13

It's a hard place to earn faction as is - at least if you're Luxon.

In regards to Upier's ideas, I too do not appreciate the draw but everything else is solid. How do you think a scoring system would work, Upier? And he who has the higher score wins?

haggus71 · May 24, 2009, 09:36 PM // 21:36

Look at the numbers. If you want the Luxons to win more, start making more GUILDS. Most guilds are Kurzick, and if you have an equal ratio of good players on either side, you will get more Kurzick players of quality than Luxons.

Luxons can ride the turtles in. Kurzicks can bond the npcs. The map is equal. As is always the case, it's the humans that mess the game up.

Shadow Slave · May 24, 2009, 10:05 PM // 22:05

The map is not balanced - simple as.

Anyone saying otherwise needs to look past the Kurdick/Suxon nonsense that is clouding their viewpoint of this obvious fact, or gtfo. It brings nothing to the discussion - which aims to open the door to ideas - which might bring about some much needed change to this format.

All these 'zomg just roll a monk and send turtles and blow stuff up and sync' etc etc posts are pointless. Post them somewhere else about how great you and your faction are.

FA is imbalanced.
~~

For starters (but not necessarily the most important), melee needs to become a viable option for the luxons.

Yes people run defy pain tanks, or scrimmage outside the fort, but that isn't the goal.

Step one needs to be (imo) changing up some of the Kurz npc bars ~

Eles:

Ward against Melee, Sliver Armor, Unsteady Ground

Necros:

Reckless Haste, Plague Signet

Ranger:

Melandrus Shot, Pin Down

Rit:

Displacement

War:

Watch Yourself"

Ofc some are more potent than others.

Add on top of this just one healer, be it Rit or Monk or w/e...and the door is essentially closed for Luxon Melee.

...Looking forward, an organised version of FA would be awesome...imo.

upier · May 24, 2009, 10:18 PM // 22:18

The draw mechanic would prevent Kurzicks wining by default.
The game still needs to be to play out, God's Vengeance would need to fill up, so you can't really force a draw prematurely. If the Kurzick do not bring in enough amber and the Luxons do not kill Gunthy by the time God's Vengeance fills up - nobody wins. Which is a much better option then the current where in such scenarios the Kurzick automatically win.
What this would do is make the prologued battles less attractive for the Kurzick (because we need to push them away from the all monk teams) and give a slightly better reward to the Luxons when they really can not do anything because the Kurzick decided to screw them over (by abusing the hiding behind a wall mechanic).

Whereas the goal of killing Gunthy still wins the game for the Luxon.
And bringing in the required amount of amber would give a new way of wining the game for the Kurzick. That way they wouldn't need to wait it out till GV is complete.

That is why I feel that implementing the draw mechanic is vital for this map. It forces the Kurzicks to actively seek victory, otherwise they gain much less faction.

Sifow Chan · May 24, 2009, 10:45 PM // 22:45

FA is so imbalanced it's not funny. 3+ monks means lux most likely lose. It's easier for 3 monks to heal damage from 8+ people.

However luxons needs to get through their heads to go kill healers before npcs but they don't seem to do it which makes me want to smash their heads with rocks.

The kurz npcs are far superior to the luxon ones. Luxon wars and rangers are pathetic. The wars are only good in a group not to mention the turtle stops moving if a Kurz is nearby.

I think luxons should all start playing touchers. 8 touchers would blow through FA, monks can't outheal that much life steal not to mention their prot prayers will become useless.

makosi · May 24, 2009, 10:54 PM // 22:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sifow Chan

I think luxons should all start playing touchers. 8 touchers would blow through FA, monks can't outheal that much life steal not to mention their prot prayers will become useless.

It would be too easy for Kurzicks to camp in the base and screw over the poor turtle AI. Touchers can't kill or deter players camping up in the fort and, although multiple touchers would get through, they'd never be able to touch Gunther and his buddies to death without support from at least one turtle.

HawkofStorms · May 24, 2009, 11:11 PM // 23:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadow Slave

The map is not balanced - simple as.

Anyone saying otherwise needs to look past the Kurdick/Suxon nonsense that is clouding their viewpoint of this obvious fact, or gtfo. It brings nothing to the discussion - which aims to open the door to ideas - which might bring about some much needed change to this format.

All these 'zomg just roll a monk and send turtles and blow stuff up and sync' etc etc posts are pointless. Post them somewhere else about how great you and your faction are.

FA is imbalanced.
~~

For starters (but not necessarily the most important), melee needs to become a viable option for the luxons.

Yes people run defy pain tanks, or scrimmage outside the fort, but that isn't the goal.

Step one needs to be (imo) changing up some of the Kurz npc bars ~

Eles:

Ward against Melee, Sliver Armor, Unsteady Ground

Necros:

Reckless Haste, Plague Signet

Ranger:

Melandrus Shot, Pin Down

Rit:

Displacement

War:

Watch Yourself"

Ofc some are more potent than others.

Add on top of this just one healer, be it Rit or Monk or w/e...and the door is essentially closed for Luxon Melee.

...Looking forward, an organised version of FA would be awesome...imo.

The simple solution... don't play as a melee character.
Adjust your build/character to the zone, not the zone to your character. This is like a mesmer with backfire complaining when he enters a PvE zone that has only warriors and rangers. You know in advance what builds the NPCs have. Design to counter it.

Bryant Again · May 24, 2009, 11:31 PM // 23:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by HawkofStorms

The simple solution... don't play as a melee character.

Further proves part of the imbalance.

The difference in that example is that a Mesmer could still bring something to the table to combat that zone.

But when you're melee oriented, what can you do besides play as something else?

Granted as a Sin you could go castsin (xp) but that's about it.